All-Female Aircrews
CRMDEEN@aol.com wrote:
It has come to my attention that one of the C-130 flying units had an interesting decision recently. As the schedulers of the different departments sent names to the central scheduler, it became apparent that a particular mission was to be flown by a crew of women. All five crew positions would have been female. The commander chose to not authorize this roster, and requested that a male replace one of the women. His rationale, as I am told, is that had the crew become involved in a "mishap", the investigation might have asked him why he authorized an "all-female" crew, even though each were current and qualified in their respective positions.
This begs me to ask, are any other flying organizations concerned about an "all-female" flight crew? Does this ever happen, without any intrepedation?
Has there been any research into the "effectiveness and efficiency" of an all-female crew, compared to the traditional all-male, compared to a mixed-gender crew?
Greg Deen
Raytheon
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: All-female crewsDate: 3/16/99 11:59:45 PM Central Standard TimeFrom: navathe@pn2.vsnl.net.in (Pooshan D Navathe MD)
This issue had come up for discussion among flight schedulers for transport crews. The dates of the menstrual periods come under part of private information. Since it is known that women may not be at their best just prior to menstruation, will it be safe to fly an all women crew who are all premenstrual? Who should check that? How? These are the problems faced, and the simple solution is to have a male member in the crew.
Any comments?
Pooshan
Wg Cdr Pooshan D Navathe B Ed, MBBS, M D (Aerospace Med), DipAvMed (USA), FaeMSAssociate Professor (Aerospace Medicine)Field Aerospace Medical Research and Indoctrination Cell (FAMRIC)
Air Force Station, Lohegaon, Pune, 411 032 India
Tele 91 20 685312 Extn 2315 (O) Extn 2393 (H)
91 20 691256 (H)
Email navathe@vsnl.com
navathe@pn2.vsnl.net.in
From: t.a.eide@psykologi.uio.no (Tor Anders Eide)
Is there any evidence that menstruation cycles affect flying skills? If it does, to what degree? If there is any correlation, it is bound to be large individual variations like for any other issue that is measured?
Two stereotyped matters regarding menstruation cycles is mood swings and cognitive performance. Is the concern the same for male pilots regarding known monthly and daily variation in mood and cognitive abilities? Has an all-male crew ever been rescheduled because of this?
Tor Anders EidePsychologystudentUniversity of Osloe-mail: t.a.eide@psykologi.uio.no
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: All-female crews Date: 3/17/99 6:10:52 PM Central Standard TimeFrom: khendy@dciem.dnd.ca (Keith Hendy)
Some Ostriches will never get their heads out of the sand. I guess I should laugh at the stupidity of the Commander's decision, but it really isn't funny. If the certification requirements for men and woman of the USAF are the same this decision is idiotic. If the standards are different (woman's standard less than men's standard) then the decision is sound. Which is correct?
Just as a matter of anecdotal evidence for the gender neutrality of the cockpit in our study of CC-130 crews a year or two ago, a female captain stood at the top of my rating scale (and in the top tercile of all raters) until the last couple of video tapes were analysed (23 crews in all). One male Captain scored very slightly higher at the end of my ratings...partly because he dealt with a slightly more difficult situation and had a chance to shine even more brightly.
A little while later one of our scientists was at CFB Trenton trying to demonstrate the use of eye-tracking technology for teaching and assessing instrument scanning patterns. Three pilots participated in this demo. One was new to the aircraft and coming from essentially a daytime-only single seat jet, was expected to be rather stale in instrument scanning discipline. Another was picked as a reasonably experienced and competent instrument pilot and a third was picked as the expert subject. The task was an instrument approach to Trenton. Unknown to the subject was a scheduled engine problem somewhere in the approach (can't remember which parameter was failed but the symptoms were to be first seen in the engine instrument cluster. Pilot 1 had an undisciplined scan, with no apparent pattern, long dwells on certain instruments, long absences from others. The failure took a long time to notice. Pilot 2 had a rather by the book pattern AI-ASI-AI-ALT-AI-HSI etc. with a more rapid detection of the impending engine/prop failure. Both Pilot 1 and 2 scanned the engine instruments from time to time. Pilot 3 had by far the best flying performance, but no detectable scanning pattern. The fixation point was generally located in the center of the primary flight cluster, not even centered on a particular instrument, but at some neutral point on the panel. There were almost no excursions to the engine instruments. When the failure came, it was detected almost instantly as noted by a deliberate saccade to the relevant instrument, detection, diagnosis and clean up followed, and the approach completed. Those familiar with the eye movement literature of pilots will recognise this as a marker of expert performance where the pilot is taking in the panel as a pattern. Deliberate eye movements are a response to the detection that something has changed in the pattern. Of course Pilot 3 was my female AC from the first study.
Then of course there is Patti Wagstaff...as Ginger Rogers once said of Fred Astair..."I did everything that Fred did but backwards and in high heels"...not that I think Patti wore high heels while winning National Aerobatic championships (more than one from memory).
Cheers
Keith Hendy
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: All-female crews
Date: 3/17/99 6:10:56 PM Central Standard Time
From: Gerry_Joering@email.msn.com (Gerald P. Joering)
The commander's response to an all female crew says more about the command structure than the abilities of females to fly airplanes. How much second-guessing is going on in that outfit?
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 06:11:06 -0600
From: "Peter J. Wolfe" <pjwolfe@ix.netcom.com>
Organization: Wolfe Enterprises
Greg,I don't know about any research on the subject, but Southwest Airlines (and I'd suspect most other major airlines) does fly all-female crews with some frequency, although it is not common because of the limited number of female pilots.
The bidding process for monthly flying schedules assumes that all qualified pilots are eligible to fly all lines - and makes no other distinction by gender, race, etc. I suspect that the major airlines are well past the point of being concerned about this sort of crew pairing issue.
Pete
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: All-female crews
Date: 3/17/99 7:36:32 PM Central Standard Time
From: FranksD@rucker.army.mil (Franks, Don M.)>Just out of curiosity, what kind of a mission would require an all women crew???????
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: All-female crews
Date: 3/17/99 9:36:54 PM Central Standard Time
From: gosnell@zeus.bwh.harvard.edu (James L. Gosnell)
The same kind of mission that would require an all male crew!
Each is as qualified as the other and should not make a difference!
James L. Gosnell, RN Anesthesia Department
Anesthesia Clinical Research Brigham & Women's Hospital<BR>
Lab # (617) 732-5196 75 Francis St. CWN L1
Fax # (617) 277-2192 Boston, MA 02115
Pager (617) 732-6987 Harvard Medical School
Beeper # 11217
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: All-female crewsDate: 3/18/99 3:45:50 AM Central Standard TimeFrom: bnixon@cti-crm.com (Bill Nixon)
Or the converse, "What mission would require an all male crew?" This is a frivolous argument.
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: All-female crews
Date: 3/18/99 3:36:35 PM Central Standard Time
From: sbyrum@cti.netten.net (Spence Byrum)
Greg,
I hope the Commander has gotten a "welcome to this century" call from someone above him in the chain of command. If the crewmembers are current and qualified, how can this possibly be a question?
There is a woman (Linda Goldenhar) at NIOSH who has done a considerable amount of work on the integration of women into the workforce
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: All-female crews
Date: 3/18/99 3:53:00 PM Central Standard Time
From: CharlieRU@aol.com
As I understand it, there is an Air Mobility Command policy on unique crew composition. Units need AMC approval for any crew selected to highlight something not usually noticed. You cannot have an all Hispanic crew for Hispanic Month, an all Irish crew for St. Patrick's Day, etc. The fact that these women were set up on the crew was by chance, they certainly must have been qualified. I'd say the commander just wanted to avoid some nonsense from outsiders.
Charlie Russell
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: All-female crews
Date: 3/18/99 5:16:51 PM Central Standard Time From: neilkrey@crm-devel.org
Good Afternoon CRMers -
I have followed the various aspects of this discussion with interest, and have to admit that my first reaction was that the topic had significant potential for degenerating below our usual high standard of discussion. All of you have happily proven me wrong.
The various reactions (including the commander whose concerns Greg relates) show a great variation in the cultural acceptability of women in an industry which is historically dominated by males. Would it be possible for some of our experts to comment on this aspect of industry culture?
Best regards,
Neil Krey
Subj: [crm-devel] Female crew
Date: 3/19/99 10:10:35 AM Central Standard TimeFrom: kopel@cwix.com (Kopel)
Good Morning,I recently joined your group and have been following the dialogue for a couple of weeks. As a US Marine Helicopter pilot and Aviation Safety Officer, I'd like to offer my perspective on the All Female Crew issue. My job requires me to review proposed flight schedules and screen them for human factors issues. I look at the task not only from the accident prevention perspective, but also screening for any issue that might have been overlooked by compartmentalized schedulers. My job is to bring up any issues, offer recommendations, and allow the commanding officer to make his own decision before authorizing the flight schedule. In this case, I would have advised against the flight. My rationale is not intended to question the qualifications of the female crew, but rather to protect them from being questioned later. If this plane had gone down, the mission, and every decision or non-decision involved, would have been instantly world-famous. The investigation would have centered upon the "female-ness" of the crew. There is more at issue than the gender of the crew. Try to look at this from the CO's perspective. Operational Risk Management dictates that if you can make a mission more "normal" by removing unusual aspects that make it unique, you should.
Craig Kopel
Capt USMC
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: All-female crews
Date: 3/19/99 7:42:37 PM Central Standard Time
From: jwiley@mindspring.com (John Wiley)
From my time with the airline, in the military and flying in general aviation, I have come to the conclusion that flying is most good headwork. I have also found that prior experience is not necessarily a good indicator of how good an aviator is going to be. I have also found that basing expectations on sex or race or anything else is not a good idea.
I have seen some female aviators who were absolutely superior and have seen some that should have not been in the cockpit. I must admit that I have also seen some male aviators who were absolutely superior and some that should not have been in the cockpit.. at times, including ME. It happens.. some days you are dead on and sometimes you couldn't find your fanny with 3 GPSs and a augmented crew.
If the crew is qualified, they are qualified. You might as well give them numbers and if their number comes up, they go. FWIW, someone once noted that the majority of accidents have white males at the stick.. and quite a few are Americans who show a strong distain for SOPs and love to challenge authority and are very aggressive. The wag's response was simple.. you want to cut down on accidents...statistics say don't hire white males...
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: Female crew
Date: 3/19/99 8:11:18 PM Central Standard TimeFrom: gosnell@zeus.bwh.harvard.edu (James L. Gosnell)
You are still talking about a gender issue. There will always be a first. There will always be the question, "What if". I have been privileged to be part of an all-male group of ICU nurses one shift. We looked around, shrugged our shoulders and went about our business of saving and preserving lives in just the same caring compassionate way it is always done, even though we were a bunch of guys! None of the Nursing Supervisors felt that they needed to add a woman to the staff to keep us in line! I was also in the back of the C-130 during an Aeromedical flight as the Medical Crew Coordinator and noticed an all female Aeromedical crew. We looked around, they realized that this was different, shrugged their shoulders and went about their business. As a private pilot, some of my best instructors have been females. They were patient, intuitive and really knew the business of teaching me to fly. (I actually think I learned more from them than some of their male counterparts) I think that in reality an all-female crew would look around, shrug their shoulder and fly the airplane without incidence. If someone was to witch hunt from a CO or Risk Management position, because this may be a new idea, untried, is this the risk? If you are qualified to fly, you should be able to fly. If there is a problem with your ability to do the job, now this is a different story. Then you should change the crew. This is truly your risk! Normalcy is two-fold. There is always going to be a "what if", but if you are not willing to give qualified people the chance to do their job. You will never know what if they could fly, well, together!
James L. Gosnell, RN
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: Female crew Date: 3/19/99 8:17:29 PM Central Standard Time From: khendy@dciem.dnd.ca (Keith Hendy)
I will believe this response when a squadron exists that is higher than 50% female. One day the scheduler puts up an all male crew. The authorising Officer pulls one of the men out of the crew and replaces them with a woman to ensure the normalcy of the crew.
Here's another one. By coincidence a crew is assembled that is all left hand dominant, another that must all wear corrective lens. Do we leap and and put in a right hander or an eagle eyed aviator? If these things don't matter, why does gender? There will come a point in time when an all female military crew is to be expected rather than unexpected (this is really just a function of ratios). The airlines have got over this hurdle, I suspect it is time for the military to bite the bullet.
I still think the issue here is the qualifications of the crew. Even if the mission runs into problems, on what grounds could the investigation center on the femaleness of the crew? A half-decent advocate would barbeque anyone that tried that line.
Many years ago (mid to late 70s), in a country quite a ways from here, an airline was struggling with what to do about their first serious female applicant. The airline had good connections with the Department and someone in uniform rang me to ask if "...there was an anthropometric reason for excluding women from flying heavy aircraft" (note the way the question was framed). They were focussing on leg strength for possible asymmetric flight conditions. I replied that we could set strength requirements that would exclude 99% of women but that would also knock out at least 30% of the men as well. Things went quite, she was accepted into conversion training, passed with flying colours and quickly rose to Captain. Now there are many women flying for that airline and no one blinks an eye when a female voice comes from the cockpit "Guday, this is your Captain speaking...".
Subj: crm-devel] Re: Female crew
Date: 3/19/99 8:34:23 PM Central Standard TimeFrom: kopel@cwix.com (Kopel)
-----Original Message-----<BR>From: James L. Gosnell <gosnell@zeus.bwh.harvard.edu>To: 'crm-devel@egroups.com' <crm-devel@egroups.com>
Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 10:50 AM
Subject: [crm-devel] Re: Female crew
>There will always be the question, "What if".
Absolutely correct. For better or worse, safety professionals are the ones who gets paid to ask it and try to answer it. We are charged with offering those who make the decision the answers with the least consequences.
I have been privileged to be part of an all-male group of ICU nurses one shift. We looked around, shrugged our shoulders and went about our business of saving and preserving lives in just the same caring compassionate way it is always done, even though we were a bunch of guys! None of the Nursing Supervisors felt that they needed to add a woman to the staff to keep us in line!
It is sad, but a fact of life, that men are more readily accepted by the public in traditionally female fields than vice versa. Had a patient been lost on your all-male shift, it is unlikely that CNN, the AMA, and every other organization with an interest would have been questioning whether the gender of the ICU team had anything to do with the death. I don't think we could say the same about the female aircrew. We know gender is not an issue in measuring performance. Unfortunately, the media would make it one if a "What if" came to pass. For me this is not a gender issue at all. It is a "protect the decision maker from unnecessary exposure" issue. The military is not the place to test "what if's". That's not what you pay us for.
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: Female crew
Date: 3/20/99 5:14:50 AM Central Standard TimeFrom: TLPoulton@aol.com
Hi CRMers!I may have to degenerate this conversation just a bit (my apologies, Neil) I missed the original message regarding all female crews in the transition. I would love for someone to send it to me so I can assess the conversation. As a female pilot in the Air Force I am dismayed, though not entirely shocked, by Capt Kopel's assessment of the reasons to not crew females together. I, too, am involved in safety and I manage the CRM program for our operational group.
I believe the reasoning to be little more than a cop-out. Just because one may be uncomfortable that women are members of the (military) aviation community does not mean that the rest of us have to suffer discrimination. Personal comfort level (socially speaking) is the problem of the individual in the cockpit. It does not give anyone the right to pick and choose the make-up of the crew.
Should we also recommend to your CO that an all male African-American or Hispanic crew not fly together? Can we truly be concerned for the safety of our female crews when the media's potential interest is the driving force? Are we saying that the mistakes of male crews are not instantly questioned and potentially "world-famous" when an aircraft and human life are lost?
I trust that our safety investigators are more forward-thinking than to focus negligent efforts on the "female-ness" of the crew. Operational Risk Management does NOT dictate that you should make a mission more "normal". It states that we should reduce risks to the effective, safe completion of the mission. Removing a current and qualified crewmember from the cockpit just because of the self-esteem problems of (I pray) select few military officers, is ridiculous.
Let us do our job. We are paid to fly to defend the constitution, just like our male co-workers. Capt Kopel says that "what ifs" are not what we are paid to find out. I beg to differ. We say "what if" we try to put two or more jets near each other and refuel while flying? What if we employ a major weapon system in a way that has never been tried before? During emergency situations, we ask "what if" quite often to facilitate CRM and the safe recovery of the aircraft(s). What if we set the example for the country we serve and let people of all types achieve the goals they desire?
Sorry to ramble, folks. This is obviously an important issue with me. From a CRM perspective, how can a crew or flight function together effectively if this type of attitude is prevalent? Rest assured the entire military institution is a bit more willing to accept others.
Thanks,
Teri Poulton
Capt USAF
P.S. I have had the distinct pleasure of flying on all-female crews on smaller airplanes since becoming an Air Force pilot ...we prefer to call it "unmanned flight". J
Subj: [crm-devel] Female CrewDate: 3/20/99 10:13:04 AM Central Standard Time
From: kopel@cwix.com (Kopel
This is going to be long, Neil. Tried to keep the last one short and caught both barrels in the face.
Perhaps the reason this topic has generated such response is because different organizations, and individuals for that matter, are at different places its evolution. The differences in opinion and lack of standardization legitimize this as a worthwhile CRM discussion topic. We should not apologize for continuing this healthy discussion. I appreciate Captain Poulton's pointed response and would be interested in her opinion on how the Air Force has been able to diversify without the upheaval that it is causing in the Navy/Marine Corps. She did not "degenerate" the conversation, and no offense was taken except where intended.
I am not particularly proud of the fact that in my organization a woman pilot has higher hurdles than men in order to "prove themselves". Women are new to Marine aviation. Most of us are not the chauvinists Captain Poulton would have us be, but particularly in the Marine Corps, there is a deep social conservatism and resistance to change. The attitudes, however disagreeable they are, are not going to change overnight. They are, however, changing.
In my area of tactical aviation, we address the potential of negative media response as a risk factor. We do what we can to minimize it. Operational Risk Management encompasses more than accident potential or crew qualifications. The simple fact is that an all-female crew in my organization would make history. It would not simply be viewed as a group of qualified aviators doing their job as it might in an airline or in the Air Force. The media has covered every other "first" for women aviators in the military and will likely continue until such stories lose their novelty. Until such a flight is not a novel event, we have to treat it as one. For the same reason that the Air Force requires higher headquarters' approval for such a flight, I would advise my commander that this flight should be scrutinized as well. If he or she chooses to authorize it - fantastic. I would be remiss though if I did not give him or her all the information available on which to base that decision.
Captain Poulton - E-mail me and I will forward the original message to you - it might have helped with your assessment of my response. kopel@cwix.com
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: Female crewDate: 3/20/99 5:27:05 PM Central Standard Time
From: MATurney@aol.com
I would very much like to hear more about the acceptability of women in various cultures since my current research, funded through a gender equity foundation, is a search for the factors which affect the retention of women in technical careers - particularly in the field of aviation.
Most of you are probably aware that women in aviation have received a lot of press, but the actual numbers of women in "technical" aviation jobs are not significantly increasing. What factors make this career field undesirable for women?
Dr. Mary Ann Turney
Arizona State University East
7442 East Tillman Ave.
Mesa, AZ 85212
602 727-1046
email: maturney@asu.edu
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: Female Crew
Date: 3/21/99 1:03:01 PM Central Standard Time
How will change be facilitated if a person, like Capt Kopel, who is willing to have an open mind still feels that an all-female crew is a social experiment?
I find it unnerving that media response is considered a risk factor in the air. I would be interested to hear from other tactical aviators if they agree with this assertion. Any media interest following an accident/incident couldn't possibly be considered a risk factor before the flight. The surest way to avoid media attention is to quit making it a big deal. The biggest risk factor in this situation would be the inevitable feeling of a female crewmember, aware of these negative attitudes, that she is not truly a part of the team.
Women have been flying without male supervision for some time. The wonderful women of the WASP organization flew, as flights, to ferry planes to the men in WWII. To again bring minorities into the argument (they have been through this ordeal longer than women), the 99th "Tuskegee Airmen" were "allowed" to crew together and were THE most successful pursuit squadron in WWII. I have never needed any kind of higher authority to fly with an all-female crew, and I'm curious where you got the notion that higher headquarters must approve it. In the KC-135, all female, all Hispanic, all African-American and probably all
Texan crews happen on occasion. In the training environment female crews happen frequently. The only approval we need is a set of flight orders and a qualified crew.
My opinion about why the Marine Corps is slow to accept women into aviation has to do with the mission of the branch as a whole. I think you have to hold a certain set of ideals to be the ones who are sent in first. It is strictly my very unimportant and fairly ignorant opinion that accepting women into that role could cause some men to feel that the Herculean strength and limitless courage that we need and expect out of them is somehow diminished because a woman can be expected to be just as brave. By no means to I accuse you or anyone in this opinion of chauvinism. I simply feel that the notion that women need men on a crew for normalcy is absurd.
Again, my biggest complaint is that because the institution does not view a crew of women as "just" a crew, the women are the ones who must sacrifice. Why is it that our careers must be different from men's when the problem lies within a few men? I have never understood this notion. I hope that Dr. Turney can see a little bit about why some women would shy away from technical aviation careers. I would not trade mine for the world and will not be discouraged to the point of choosing another career, but many women may wish to avoid the constant confrontation and second-guessing.
Thanks again
Teri Poulton
"Let her swim, climb mountain peaks, pilot airplanes, battle against the elements, take risks, go out for adventure, and she will not feel before the world...timidity". Simone de Beauvoir from Girls Can't Be Pilots by Margaret J. Ringenberg
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: Female crewDate: 3/21/99 3:05:09 PM Central Standard Time
From: AAdamski@aol.com
Mary Ann:In case you have not already done so, I suggest you contact Dr. Peggy Batey of Women in Aviation International. I am sure she would be pleased to assist you.
The Association's website is: www.wiai.org
Peggy's contact is937 839 4647
Tony A (the Other Tony)
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: All-female crews
Date: 3/22/99 7:56:24 AM Central Standard Time
From: FranksD@rucker.army.mil (Franks, Don M.)
No argument intended! It was simply a question as to why anyone, military or civilian would try to designate an all female or all male crew. Just curious concerning the thought process or lack thereof. Is there a specific mission that would require this separation?
Subj: [crm-devel] Female crew
Date: 3/22/99 8:40:11 AM Central Standard Time
From: Jeff.R.Hill@delta-air.com (Hill, Jeff R)
Capt Kopel
As a US Marine Helicopter pilot and Aviation Safety Officer, I'd like to offer my perspective on the All Female Crew issue. My job requires me to review proposed flight schedules and screen them for human factors issues.
I look at the task not only from the accident prevention perspective, but also screening for any issue that might have been overlooked by compartmentalized schedulers. My job is to bring up any issues, offer recommendations, and allow the commanding officer to make his own decision before authorizing the flight schedule.
You said <<< In this case, I would have advised against the flight. My rationale is not intended to question the qualifications of the female crew, but rather to protect them from being questioned later. If this plane had gone down, the mission, and every decision or non-decision involved, would have been instantly world-famous. >>>
I have to ask if you are managing flight risk or news media risk?
You said <<< The investigation would have centered upon the "female-ness" of the crew. There is more at issue than the gender of the crew. >>>
What would that be?
You said <<< Try to look at this from the CO’s perspective. Operational Risk Management dictates that if you can make a mission more "normal" by removing unusual aspects that make it unique, you should. >>>
I would have to ask your CO a few questions:
1. Are the women qualified?
2. Are they qualified under the same criteria as the men?
3. Do you have any evidence that putting together an all-woman crew makes them unqualified?
4. Are you prepared to answer to higher authorities why you would NOT put together this qualified crew?
As a retired military officer, I would certainly want to know if the basic crew qualifications were good enough for the ultimate test... combat...BUT, I am afraid I don't buy your arguments. Please comment.
Jeff Hill
Delta Air Lines
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: Female crew
Date: 3/22/99 8:40:18 AM Central Standard Time
From: Jeff.R.Hill@delta-air.com (Hill, Jeff R)
Capt Kopel
Once again, I must respectfully disagree with you position... I believe that you told us (previously) that you job was that of aviation safety officer.
Is it you job to manage safety of media?
Let me play "what if?" just a second. Let's imagine that the most competent combat crew in your squadron was all female. In a crisis situation, you elect to NOT use this crew. What would you tell the "guys" in your squadron about NOT using your most competent crew?
You said <<< The military is not the place to test "what if's". That's not what you pay us for.>>>
What about the following what ifs:
1. What if airplanes could fly faster than the speed of sound?
2. What if we could mount a gun on an F-4?
3. What if we could fly airplanes in the black of night using only FLIR and NVGs?
4. What if we could mount an artillery piece in a C-130 and use it as a precision weapon in the dark of night?
5. What if we could refuel airplanes in the air?
We could build an extended list of "what ifs" for the military. I suggest to you that all major advances in the military came as the result of "what ifs." If in combat, I want the very best crews I can get. If that means women, then so be it.
Your thoughts?
Jeff Hill
Delta Air Lines
(USAF, ret)
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: Female crew
Date: 3/22/99 4:15:17 PM Central Standard Time
From: george.sweeney@NWA.COM (George Sweeney III)
Capt Kopel has certainly livened up in this forum!
In this case, I must take issue with my fellow-Marine, although I understand the political climate and "zero-defects" considerations he's sensitive to when reviewing his flight schedule.
Jeff Hill's remarks are on target. Who is best qualified to go in harm's way must be the only criteria. In Vietnam, it was too often "SOP" to crew a "strong" pilot with a "weak" RIO (B/N, WSO, etc.) - or vice-versa. ("Strong" and "Weak'' could refer to experience levels, or actual abilities.) The results were usually the same: compromise of the mission in some regard, and/or sometimes the death of aircrew or personnel on the ground being supported. The best squadrons-my personal experience was in F-4s-put their strongest crews together in each aircraft, section and division. If someone was not qualified, they didn't go. Some squadrons specifically designated which crewmembers could go where, based on severity of the anticipated threat/mission difficulty. This caused some griping, but it was both the safe and most combat effective way to go.
If pilots got the wings and can do the job, put 'em on the schedule if they're not in the "Snivel Log." If pilots can't do the job, they must not be permitted to risk the death of others, let alone themselves.
Semper Fi'-and good luck, Captain Kopel
Lt. Colonel George Sweeney USMC (Ret)
Manager Human Factors Development
Northwest Airlines Flight Operations
Subj: [crm-devel] Kopel - From the ropes.
Date: 3/22/99 5:37:21 PM Central Standard Time
From: kopel@cwix.com (Kopel)
CRMers
This is not the way I hoped to earn my 15 minutes of fame. Glad I could provide an outlet for some frustration. So, from the ropes with both eyes swollen and teeth scattered about the canvas, I will try to do a better job of articulating the context of my original comments. Then I will check myself in for refresher sensitivity training.
My initial response to the CRM group was in answer to Greg Deen's question "are there any other flying organizations concerned about an "all-female" flight crew?" I indicated that if an all-female crew showed up on a flight schedule that I was screening, I would advise my CO of the potential implications involved. In most Marine squadrons, the Department of Safety and Standardization (equivalent to safety and stan/eval combined) is the first, and often the only one, to screen a complete flight schedule before it goes to the head shed. My job is to find the big picture items that get missed in a compartmentalized scheduling process. Qualifications are not the issue. Like it or not, the first all female crew who flies a MEU(SOC) mission will be followed by camera crews and press folks from DACOWITS, WIAI, and many others. It's not a "social experiment". It is reality. If I let my CO get surprised by that, I would soon be a former staff officer. I am not a theorist. I'm an operational pilot and staff officer to my CO. When they ask for my input they do not want to hear my opinion on the way things ought to be, or on what is wrong with our society as a whole. They want to know how to cover their backs. In today's military, where careers are crushed by presupposition and inaccurate perceptions, media interest is not usually a desired impact. CO's routinely ask themselves "What are they going to say if this plane goes down?" and then do their best to insure that "what they will say" does not cause their decisions to be questioned. It may not be right. It may be the result of a zero defect mentality. It may not lend itself to inspiring beneficial change. It does, however, exist. I just commented on it, I did not originate the problem.
Where's that referee?
Although my experience with it apparently differ from Capt Poulton's, I am familiar with operational risk management terms. I authored the ORM policy for the Aviation Combat Element of the only permanent Marine Expeditionary Unit in WestPac. ORM, by definition, relies on total integration into the operational planning process. Real world contingency go/no-go criteria established by ORM policies encompass more than CRM principles and crew qualification issues. I recently concluded 3 years and five consecutive deployment cycles (all as a pilot and staff officer, two as a safety officer) with a forward-deployed Marine Expeditionary Unit (SOC). Because most MEU (SOC) missions take place in hotspots already being covered by the media, our rapid response planning process (R2P2) addresses media impact right up there with friendly and enemy order of battle. Do you remember the O’Grady TRAP mission? Do you also remember that the media, after nearly compromising the mission, attacked the MEU (SOC) commander for his decision to use the most senior, experienced crews available for the mission? Negative, albeit inaccurate, media response to sound decision making DOES have tangible impact. The frame of reference I commented from (remember the qualifier "in my area of tactical aviation") was that of a deployed MEU(SOC). It was simply a response to the question,"Are there any organizations out there that are concerned with an all woman crew." In my organization, today, it would be a concern. Not because of the gender or qualifications of the crew, but for the attention that it would bring.
Standing eight count is getting tougher.
Mr. Hill, I stand by my comment on the "What if" issue. Each of your five "what if" scenarios occurred in the R & D environment, not in a deployed operational unit, which was the context of my comments.
Ding, Ding. White towel.
Capt Kopel
Subj: [crm-devel] Still professional friends...
Date: 3/23/99 7:10:41 AM Central Standard Time
From: Jeff.R.Hill@delta-air.com (Hill, Jeff R)
Capt Kopel
Once again I appreciate your comments.
You said <<< My job is to find the big picture items that get missed in a compartmentalized scheduling process. Qualifications are not the issue. Like it or not, the first all female crew who flies a MEU(SOC) mission will be followed by camera crews and press folks from DACOWITS, WIAI, and many others. It's not a "social experiment". It is reality. >>>
I would have to ask what the news media would be doing on base during combat. Perhaps I am confusing roles... in the USAF, we had a special office (public affairs) for dealing with the news media.
You said <<< In today's military, where careers are crushed by presupposition and inaccurate perceptions, media interest is not usually a desired impact. CO's routinely ask themselves "What are they going to say if this plane goes down?" and then do their best to insure that "what they will say" does not cause their decisions to be questioned. >>> I might ask, "what happens if the plane stays up?" Once again, how do you explain to the guys in the squadron that you picked a crew based on what happens if they go down... nes media, etc.? What is the mission here?
You said <<< Do you remember the O'Grady TRAP mission? Do you also remember that the media, after nearly compromising the mission, attacked the MEU(SOC) commander for his decision to use the most senior, experienced crews available for the mission? >>> I seem to remember either an O-6 or an O-7 on board... I would certainly question why that guy was on the airplane!
You said <<< Mr. Hill, I stand by my comment on the "What if" issue. Each of your five "what if" scenarios occurred in the R & D environment, not in a deployed operational unit, which was the context of my comments. >>>
Aerial refueling as accomplished MANY years ago by Ira Eaker et al... I am not sure there was such a thing as R & D then (I could be wrong). If I am not mistaken, Gen Olds of the 8 TFW was one of the first to strap a gun to an F-4... that was NOT an R & D outfit.... Lt Col Doolittle took off from a carrier (better he than me) in B-25s... that was not an R & D outfit. I could go on and on. I stand by my prior statement. I would suggest that the field commander without innovation might be termed a "target."
Let me say once again that our country, our military and our military buds count on you to make sound tactical decisions. We have significant evidence to indicate that the media is not always helpful. We also have evidence that our attempts to appease the media often overwhelm our attempts at tactical advantage... I seem to remember a war in Vietnam driven, at times, by "body counts." I seem to remember reports that body counts were driven NOT by actual accounts, but by attempts to sway the American people via the media.
Fly safe, but please keep your pipper on the right target!
Jeff Hill
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: Still professional friends...
Date: 3/23/99 8:11:44 AM Central Standard Time
From: kopel@cwix.com (Kopel)
Mr. Hill,
>I would have to ask what the news media would be doing on base during combat. Perhaps I am confusing roles... in the USAF, we had a special office (public affairs) for dealing with the news media.
One of the funniest but most discouraging stories I remember about Somalia occurred during the initial insert of the MEU(SOC) recon element. The first contact that the point man had as he low crawled up the beach was met with
Christianne Amanpour (sp?) of CNN and her cameraman and spotlight. She stuck a mic in his face and said, "How did you get here?" With a disgusted and embarrassed look on his face he waved his team out of hiding and said, "I came in a rubber boat, ma'am." If they had been all left handed or all wearing green paint instead of brown, you can bet she would have commented on it. The media is a different animal now than it was in SEA. We include them in our decision-making at all levels. The Gulf War changed everything. Public Affairs no longer buffers the shooters from the reporters.
>You said <<< Do you remember the O'Grady TRAP mission? Do you also remember that the media, after nearly compromising the mission, attacked the MEU(SOC) commander for his decision to use the most senior, experienced crews available for the mission? >>> I seem to remember either an O-6 or an O-7 on board... I would certainly question why that guy was on the >airplane!
He was the MEU Executive Officer (O-5). He typically manages missions from the operations center on the ship and relays decisions via communication links. This mission occurred without direct communication. With a mission that was being followed real time in the White House, it was a sound decision.
>Fly safe, but please keep your pipper on the right target!
Wilco, but until they are identified as friendly, the news media stays on the list.
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: Kopel - From the ropes.
Date: 3/23/99 8:16:53 AM Central Standard Time
From: Neilkrey@aol.com
Capt Kopel -
You are doing just fine! I'm sure you feel a bit under siege, but I have to salute your honesty and willingness to maintain the discussion at the highest professional level. As I said earlier, I don't see this as a matter of right-or-wrong, or of political correctness. This is an issue of culture, and not just military culture.
While we only have to look back a couple of years to a time when females were not allowed in combat at all, if we look around the civilian world there are still many geographic areas where the thought of an all-female crew would not be greeted warmly. Imagine Greg's scenario at an airline in the Middle East or parts of Asia.
The core question for us in this group is -- what effects do these cultural differences have on the performance of a flight crew?
From personal experience teaching CRM workshops, I know that the class's females would almost always be cast as the decision-maker in role playing exercises. The discussion would always turn to mixed crews if a woman were in the class, but the subject would never even come up if the class was all male.
What does this all mean to training and safety?
Best regards,
Neil Krey
Subj: [crm-devel] Re: Kopel - From the ropes.
Date: 3/23/99 8:18:19 AM Central Standard Time
From: TLPoulton@aol.com
I hope this will be my last posting on this issue (the crowd goes wild)! I will not respond to the personal e-mail Capt Kopel chose to send, but I must take issue with one more aspect of his argument.
I agree with my friend Mr. Hill that "what ifs" happen in Deployed Operational Units on a regular basis. On my last rotation to the desert, we modified/changed procedures to better accommodate the environment and mission accomplishment. It is never wrong to examine how to better a situation.
Thanks for the.... interest!
Good Day!
Teri Poulton